is it cruel to think that a major part of society simply cannot develop class consciousness and take part in their own liberation? that they are simply biologically inferior, but still deserve liberation from the hands of a 'vanguard' (not necessarily, just giving an example)?. they do deserve to be equal to the 'intellectuals' (most accurate term i could think of) who do develop 'class consciousness' in the ideal marxist society, but that they just cannot understand it and won't be able to ever. just a random thought, i do not support this theory because it differs from my world view, just looking for discussion!. On the other hand, could the 'not liberating' be because of the sheer volume of capitalist propaganda plaguing the world? That, contradicting the previous theory, everyone is capable of understanding liberation, as long as they break free from capitalist distractions. revolution comes slowly after all...it's a process. reading gramsci's theory of organic intellectualism is what got me thinking about this. no fighting please, i want to see civil discussion only.
i'd say it's capitalism being so deeply ingrained into society that people can't envision a future without it being there. some people believe capitalism is the best the world can offer because when they look at history and see what happened to the USSR for an example they are inclined to believe that communism/socialism is bad and a worse alternative to capitalism. it's not that people aren't able to develop class consciousness, i believe anyone can do so. but i think for people to wake up, capitalism needs to be in a worse state than it already is so people can finally realize to see how bad it actually is. i think its a bit pessimistic to believe that out of 8 billion people only a select few can become "aware"
awesome amber. we totally weren't talking about this beforehand.
@janisamnarodnjak gulp
I think most people, at least the ones i see online or have spoken to in the tri-state area(i live in the northeast if that means anything) either hate capitalism or think they completely support it. With that being said, I think that change scares people too much so whatever class consciousness they develop either gets pushed to the back burner or they stomp it out bc evil commies are gonna make them all share the same paycheck and billionaires will save and care for us. I know another reply said this already but I also thing everyone thinks capitalism is best system we have because it makes them feel like they’re free and it rewards our “natural human greed”, and have been fed anti-anything that’s not capitalism propaganda all their lives and yeah. Sorry i know these aren’t exactly jaw dropping ideas i just wanted to put in my 2 cents lol
yeah...cold war propaganda still lingers
I think the danger here is defining liberation so narrowly that anyone who does not arrive at Marxist class consciousness is assumed to be confused, manipulated, or intellectually limited. People can understand exploitation and still disagree about its causes, about which forms of power matter most, or about what a better society should look like. Workers are not one uniform political subject, and class is not the only structure shaping people’s lives.
I also hesitate at the idea of a “vanguard” guiding supposedly less conscious people toward liberation. Even when the intention is equality, that structure can reproduce the same hierarchy it claims to abolish: one group decides what freedom means, who understands it, and when everyone else is ready for it. Liberation that requires people to accept a predetermined worldview risks becoming another form of rule over them.
Capitalist propaganda is real, but disagreement cannot always be explained away as propaganda. People may value democracy, pluralism, personal autonomy, gradual reform, local cooperation, or mixed economic systems for reasons that are not simply intellectual failure. A genuinely liberatory politics should be able to tolerate disagreement without treating dissenters as defective or awaiting enlightenment.
i for the most part agree, interesting take
I wouldn't mark it necessarily as cruel, but quite self aggrandizing to say that some people cannot develop class consciousness and take part in their own liberation, and that makes them "biologically inferior". Anyone can see how capitalism has failed them and/or their community, and try to seek further knowledge about a better system to benefit society. But I do think inaction as well as distraction begets complacency, and if you are born into and conditioned from birth to favour one system, it can take constant effort and action to unlearn that propaganda, as well as to utilise what you've learned to propel your ideals in a forward collective motion. Another thing to consider is access, some people may well have the attitude and ideals towards class consciousness, but not the access to further education, community and organising.
Not sure that I worded this as succinctly as I could've, but I appreciate the discussion.
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