(I wrote this on a whim somewhere else. Sorry if it's a bit sloppy at some points.)
Random thoughts time: Marxism and anarcho-capitalism kinda have the same problem of putting the cart before the horse
Marxism structures society into a hierarchy; forces of production (material base; raw materials, tech, labor power, knowledge of tech) -> relations of production (economic structure; property relations, class divisions, power dynamics) -> superstructure (legal system, state apparatuses, political institutions, culture, religions, consciousness). On consciousness, it is determined by being and not vice versa; material necessity forces humans into economic relations which subequently shapes human thought and legal systems and da-da-da. But if we think about it this becomes incoherent. Mental preconceptions precede material production; Marx sez humanity must eat before it can think, metaphor for economic necessity determining society. But vice versa is just as true! For humans to plant crops build factories organize labor etc they must possess mental planning, conceptual frameworks, social/religious practices etc al. We can take this one step further; exchange itself presupposes legal (voluntary or fiat) conceptions themselves. Marx puts commodity exchange at the heart of the economic base, but exchange is parasitic on the prior property norms and rules for possession themselves. To explain *why* people engage in/respect exchange at all (and he must do this, since it's the heart of his model) you kind of have to appeal to normative beliefs or coercive enforcement. But these are superstructural elements. Underlying the base itself is a "substructure" of political authority, coercive power, property conceptions etc that underlies the base, which do not necessarily require economic relations.
Anarcho-capitalism takes a similar assumption for granted; it assumes that property, exchange, and economic relations themselves operate as a self-generating and autonomous "base" that naturally precedes and generates social order. Culture, norms, power, and legal enforcement = a secondary, "superstructural" derivative. Rothbard sez for example essentially that private property rights, self-ownership, and voluntary contracts are pure economic axioms. These are the base. But a contract is a legal-ideological superstructure; only functioning if there is an already a shared, normative framework and a mechanism of coercion/social sanction that forces parties to honor it. Ancaps assume that economic contracts create the order of the market. But as I've said, contracts presuppose a pre-existing substructure of norms, institutions, and social trust that respect such agreements; people have to agree to the terms to function under them, otherwise they wouldn't at all.
Both Marxists and ancaps treat capital accumulation as a normal autonomous function of the "base", the economic engine. But actually existing capitalism relies on state intervention; absentee land titles, corporate charters enforced by the state, banking monopolies, legal protections for capital accumulation, da-da-da-da. The "base" only generates capital accumulation due to developing within a pre-existing state "superstructure" that allows capitalism to function through political authority. Ancaps and Marxists are kinda two sides of the same coin.
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Apav
I agree Marxism and purely ancap thinking share the fatal flaw of assuming economic relations on their own generate social order, but I also think this discussion suffers from the fact almost everyone in these groups disagree on how to define their ideology or capitalism.
This is, unfortunately, very true, and makes discussion with both groups basically impossible
by dub_housing; ; Report
Will
I thought you may enjoy this Proudhon quote. It made me think of your post.
“For there is one truth of which I am profoundly convinced, — nations live by absolute ideas, not by approximate and partial conceptions; therefore, men are needed who define principles, or at least test them in the fire of controversy. Such is the law, — the idea first, the pure idea, the understanding of the laws of God, the theory: practice follows with slow steps, cautious, attentive to the succession of events; sure to seize, towards this eternal meridian, the indications of supreme reason. The co-operation of theory and practice produces in humanity the realization of order, — the absolute truth.” - Proudhon, "What is Property?"
Ah, but you see, according to Marxists me and Proudhon are idealists 🙄
by dub_housing; ; Report
A good pragmatist requires some idealism
by Will; ; Report
Will
Regarding the phenomena in question, it does certainly seem as though Marxists and Austrians smuggle in some materialist assumptions. This is curious, seeing as Ludwig von Mises wrote so much on "human action," which is intended to deny materialist reasoning.
On another note, related only by discussion of Marxism and metaphysics, have you read Joseph Dietzgen? He is probably my favorite Marxist and the actual originator of dialectical materialism (a term he might actually not fully like), which is arguably more neutral monist than it is monist materialism. It is well worth reading Gambone's "Cosmic Dialectics" which summarizes his thought: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/larry-gambone-cosmic-dialectics